Introduction
[00:00:00] Detective Ev: Well, hello, my friends. Welcome back to another episode of the Health Detective Podcast by Functional Diagnostic Nutrition. My name is Evan Transue, AKA Detective Ev. I will be your host for today’s show on the HTMA test.
We’re switching it up a little bit today. This is the first time we are doing what we’re about to do, and we’re going over live lab results. There’s two ways to consume this episode. You can listen on the audio, and I don’t think it would be a problem at all. I think you would be able to get the bulk of the information that you need. But in addition, if you’re listening to this right now, it also means that the YouTube version of this is out, and we are doing a live video screen share where we’re actually seeing the lab results as well.
I am doing this full disclosure to bring more attention to our YouTube because we’ve done audio for about two years now. We’ve had a lot of success here, we’re very blessed. But we just started posting on YouTube somewhat recently. When you do that, you’re basically starting from square one, it’s basically square one for us.
I don’t even think I’ve mentioned on here that we’re doing it on YouTube. So, you guys do have the ability to watch some of these episodes on YouTube. We’re stacking them up as we go. There are three releases a week on there. Just to be clear, that’s not any additional episodes, it’s just to make up for lost time because we release two here every week and we need to catch up to where we’re at on the YouTube page. So, we’re doing three releases a week there, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.
Becoming an Expert in the HTMA Test
Again, if you’re listening to this one right now, then that means we have the video up and you can check the lab results when that part of the podcast comes up. It’s only about 17 minutes into the recording itself, probably about 20, 21 minutes on this particular audio. No need to go do it right now, but if you want to do it, you have that ability. I will have the YouTube link in the show notes for you guys.
We’re talking to Barbara Madimenos. She is someone who’s been on before if you’re a long-time listener. She was on back, January 4th, 2022. She was the first episode of the year, actually, where we talked about the things that she struggled with health wise: missing periods, anorexia, and osteoporosis. If you want to hear her story, again, check the show notes, the link will be there.
Today we’re bringing her on because she is pretty much becoming an expert in HTMA, which is hair, tissue, mineral analysis. I need to put one disclaimer on before we do this episode today cause I want to be able to do more episodes like this. But I know that we have a lot of people who are considering the FDN course listening to this. I know we have a lot of people who are current and active trainees listening to this.
Train Up Before Using the HTMA Test
If me posting a podcast like this ends up leading to other problems, we’re not going to be able to do it in the future. It is really simple and really easy to avoid the problems, so let me explain what I mean. The FDN system teaches six tests in and of itself. We go over stool testing, hormone testing, mucosal barrier assessments (basically a leaky gut test, more or less), a metabolic wellness panel, the metabolic typing diet in and of itself, and food sensitivities, of course. We test for those six things.
You have access to over 60 labs, in counting, once you graduate. If you want to utilize some of those additional labs, whether it’s because you think you are just interested in it, or maybe one of those tests ends up being something that really helps you and it has a special place in your heart. All of that’s fine.
What we are asking is that before you start going out and trying to use those tests, focus on what you were trained in first. This system has been proven for the last upwards of 30 something years, because Reed was doing this for a long time before it ever became a course. Reed ran 10,000 labs, almost 11,000 labs, I believe actually, on clients before he was teaching this to anyone else. The guy knows what he’s doing.
Follow Your FDN Training Before Adding on the HTMA Test
The system was created in a certain way, from actual, real lived experience. With all due respect, it comes across as a little arrogant almost when we come into the course and think that we’ll go do it a different way and do it better.
It’s like, where do you have the justification to do that? Have you run 10,000 labs? I mean, perhaps you’re the one in a million who has. Most likely if you’re coming into this course, you have not done that yet though. Maybe, just maybe, we should try it the FDN way before we start adding on other things.
My point in saying that is we can’t be going into the FDN training group saying, I want to get access to this test and that test, anything that I talk about on here. I’m trying to do this for you guys to keep it interesting, to keep it fresh, and to just bring on something that you might want to learn about.
You might want to use this later down the road. Maybe you do want to take the advanced courses. Well, FDN doesn’t offer an advanced HTMA test at this time. But we have a wonderful FDN graduate, Kendra Perry, who has one of the better trainings in the industry. Some consider it the best. It’s pretty amazing that that’s an FDN, who’s done that. Congrats to her. If you want to go do that, that’s fine. But I need you to be able to listen to this today if you’re a trainee or someone considering the course. Think about it as being interesting, as being cool, but not something that you are going to use day one after graduating, when you have zero training on it.
Don’t Run Any Test Before Getting the Training on It
What I want to leave you with is this before we get to the episode. The best test in the world, the most advanced technology, the best out there is not actually the best test to the person who does not know how to analyze it. The best test with the best technology in the world is not actually the best to the person who doesn’t know how to analyze it. Does that make sense?
How are you helping the person if you run a really fancy, great test that you don’t know how to use? If you want to use these other tests one day, that’s fine. Get the training on it. But for now, once you’re starting your FDN practice or maybe working for someone else, stick to what you know. Stick to the main stuff, utilize that, and then add on as you go.
I apologize for that long introduction. But seriously, this is such an important topic here that I had to preface it because otherwise I’m not going to be able to do this in the future. If you guys are able to separate this stuff and it’s not coming back to me that I’m introducing these tests to people who haven’t gone through the FDN course fully yet, well then guess what? We’re going to be able to do this all the time, and I’m going to be able to talk about 30 different things and have a really great time on this over the next year.
So, let’s learn to just balance it. Let’s all be cool about it. Stick with what we know and then add on stuff that you might find interesting here as time goes on. Without further ado, let’s get to today’s episode.
Focusing on Hormones and the HTMA Test
All right. Hello, Barbara. Welcome back to the Health Detective Podcast. How are you?
Barbara Madimenos: Good. How are you?
Detective Ev: I’m doing very well, thank you.
Barbara is one of those people that’s actually been on before. If you’re a long-time listener, you might remember her. I actually pulled up the episode, Episode 106. It was January 4th of this year, 2022 that you were released.
If you guys want to hear Barbara’s full story, definitely go there. We talked about anorexia, missing periods, osteoporosis. It was some stuff that actually hadn’t been brought up before on this show. Definitely you and I relate to the mental health side of things a lot. I know that we went pretty deep that day into that. If you’re interested in those topics, I’d highly recommend checking that out. I will have the link to that in the show notes on anywhere that you’re listening to this podcast.
But for today, we’re taking a completely separate route. I wanted to bring Barbara on because one of the things that she has really started to stand out with, this kind of happens to all FDN practitioners. Right? I feel like if I asked you what is the topic that I stand out with, people would say like the light stuff. You know that’s really my thing. I love talking about it.
Barbara’s really moved into the hormonal side and HTMA and we’re going to focus on the latter today. I’m sure they’re actually quite interconnected with how you use the HTMA. So, let’s just start with the basics and bring someone right through it. What does HTMA stand for and what are we looking at when we run this test with someone?
The HTMA Test Analyzes Minerals and Heavy Metals
[00:07:37] Barbara Madimenos: HTMA stands for hair, tissue, mineral analysis. So essentially what we do is we take a piece of your hair that is close to the root.
It’s an average, or an accumulation, or like a reflection, I guess I should say, of the past three to four months of your health. We analyze our minerals, and we also analyze heavy metals.
[00:07:56] Detective Ev: Very cool. I actually ran this for the first time. It’s something that we have access to as FDN practitioners.
I think I’ll put this in the intro as well, but one thing I should preface, just so people hear it again, this is not something that we teach in the main FDN course. So sometimes I’m like hesitant. I’m like, do I bring people on to talk about these things? But I feel like people just have to learn to think critically.
We have the main FDN course, it works very well. And 80% of the time that’s going to be all you need for most clients, if you’re actually doing it. However, there’s a reason that we have access to over 60 labs and counting as FDNs. It’s because some people want to maybe switch things up or they want to specialize in a certain way. Not like a doctor would necessarily but specialize in a certain topic like this.
Or maybe they have a personal story where that test really helped them and that’s something now, they want to use. So, I ran this test myself just a few months back and I’ll explain why I did that later. But I was pretty fascinated by some of the things that I found.
The HTMA Test Helps Pinpoint Imbalances
How did you get into this? Like what was the appeal to you since it’s not something that’s actually taught in the main FDN course?
[00:08:55] Barbara Madimenos: It was interesting because I initially, I mentioned this in the last episode, I initially started looking for ways to kind of help myself feel better as recovering from my eating disorder. I was like, what kind of foods can I eat? What nutrients do they have that I might be missing? Like, those are the symptoms that I’m having, right?
So, if I wasn’t sleeping well, if I had a lot of anxiety, I’d reach for foods that were higher in magnesium, things like that. I just got very fascinated by the mineral aspect because vitamins, it’s not that they interact that differently, but minerals essentially are a little more complicated, I guess you could say.
As I was also working with other clients, I realized that hormonal issues were not the root cause to a lot of people’s problems. Usually there is a reason why you have a hormonal issue, right? So, I tried to work backwards. I was like, okay, well what synthesizes a hormone? And like what creates an enzymatic reaction. And like, what does this?
You go down the rabbit hole and you work backwards. Cause I think instead of working forward, you have to work backwards to find the root cause to something. I ended up with minerals. I just found it really fascinating. It’s not so much that you might be missing minerals, but it’s that you might have an imbalance of minerals. And how your body is either burning through them or using them, or how maybe your body’s just not absorbing them adequately and so forth.
Trace Elements HTMA Test
[00:10:20] Detective Ev: It’s an important topic to bring up because you really can’t get into our world as FDNs without hearing about this eventually. We’re really fortunate, by coincidence, a well-known FDN, her name’s Kendra Perry, she actually has one of the best courses out there on HTMA. I mean, people love this thing.
It was cool because she had a very important role in FDN at one point, too. If I’m not mistaken, I think she’s even on our advisory board still. She knew how to integrate this perfectly with our system and what we’re doing here.
I want to backtrack for a second, cause I forgot. I should have asked something obvious. I’m not expecting you to recite every little marker on HTMA, but when we are speaking about the HTMA test, I feel like you probably just use one or two tests, maybe tops. So what test are you primarily using, like which lab? And what markers are you looking at?
Again, we can just go over the main ones if you want. I’m not expecting us to go over every single one.
[00:11:08] Barbara Madimenos: I use TEI, Trace Elements, which is the one that I use just because I find that they have a broader variety. I like the way that they break up the systems and how to look at it. I think it’s easier on the eyes as well. If I’m not mistaken, I think it’s just a bit cheaper for clients. So, I just work with them that way.
But in terms of like what I look at, I mean, you do have to technically look at the whole thing because everything means something.
HTMA Test – The Main Macro Minerals
When you’re doing a first analysis, I usually just tell clients, let’s work first on the basics, like the foundations, right? Because you can’t have the foundations and then expect everything to work. That’s with like any test, that’s with like any protocol.
I typically look at your four main electrolytes. Some people like to also look at the five. So, your calcium, magnesium, potassium, sodium, and your phosphorus.
[00:11:59] Detective Ev: What I want to do actually is we will bring up my test results soon and kind of go over those four or five main things as well as some other stuff. But I’ve heard this before. I’m not an expert on it despite having ran it, I ran it on myself. So that’s perfectly okay. As an FDN, you can run anything on yourself if you’re not an expert and learn that way.
I wouldn’t necessarily use this with an abundant of clients, like personally, because I don’t know enough about it. But I’ve heard over and over and over again, this idea that these four main markers or five main markers, in this case, are some of the most important despite everything having to be looked at.
So, what are some of the main reasons that those are considered to be kind of the big guns? Like they’re really the important things.
[00:12:38] Barbara Madimenos: I think they’re the main macro minerals, I guess you could say, the main minerals essentially, that can influence other minerals. They also can represent main body systems cause we also look at your minerals in a ratio sequence.
HTMA Test – Mineral Ratios & What They Point To
Your calcium, yes, represents many things such as your oxidation rate and the calcium that could potentially be coming out of your bones, if you have like a very high marker.
But if you were to look at your calcium to magnesium ratio, we would also recognize it as the blood sugar ratio. Or if you were to look at your calcium to potassium ratio, we would recognize that as your thyroid ratio. Or your sodium to magnesium ratio, that’s your adrenal ratio. There’s systems that we could also kind of peek through in with these main minerals.
[00:13:29] Detective Ev: If I may ask, I feel like you’ve shared similar things before, so I hope this is okay. What were you finding on your test when you ran this after having dealt with what you dealt with? Cause I feel like, just knowing the conditions, if we’re not eating enough, if we have osteoporosis, that in and of itself is already implying certain things that would show up on the test.
Were you surprised by what you found? What were some of the main things that were on there once you ran the test?
[00:13:52] Barbara Madimenos: Interestingly enough, I didn’t run a hair test while I was recovering. I ran my first hair test when I would have considered myself a little more stable from my eating disorder. But I think my body was still under so much stress that I was experiencing more of a burnout than anything else. When I ran my first hair test, I was a mess.
HTMA Test as A Standalone Test
My calcium was through the roof. It was connected obviously to my osteoporosis. I wasn’t retaining calcium adequately. My sodium was ridiculously low, and my potassium was also leaving my tissues, which we would also consider more of a trauma ratio when you’re looking at your sodium to potassium ratio.
I wasn’t surprised, but I was like, wow, I have a lot of work to do.
[00:14:39] Detective Ev: I think that’s how it can be sometimes in our work especially the better that we get. It’s not that we’re able to predict it perfectly. That’s why we test, we’re not able to do that. But we can get a little more educated and you’re like, I’m pretty sure it’s going to be this way.
Then once you see it, there’s always a different experience from the guess versus, okay, these are the objective results that I just received back from this test. This is actually what’s happening in the body. This is what I need to go do. Maybe I’m getting a little ahead of myself now, because I know that I would like people to stick within the main FDN system first, before trying to do stuff like this.
However, I know a lot of people use this test as a standalone or an entryway into the actual bigger tests. Like Kendra, if I’m not mistaken, almost teaches this as something you can use as a standalone because it’s a cheap test and it’s very effective.
Are you using that at all sometimes? Like, are you using this as a standalone test with clients or have you at least in the past?
The HTMA Test Can Reveal Clients’ Energetics
[00:15:30] Barbara Madimenos: Yeah, it’s the one test that I run on every single client that comes to me no matter what they’re dealing with. I find that I could get a really good idea as to how their body’s reacting.
This is going to sound a bit woo-woo, but also like the energetics of the individual. I find that when you peek into their oxidation rate, like whether they’re a slow or a fast oxidizer, you can tell a bit like which state of stress they’re in and also how they’re living their life in terms of their personality.
I mean, minerals do influence our personality to a certain degree as well. So yeah, I use the HTMA as a standalone. If I feel like we need to do further investigation, then I’ll run a GI MAP test. Maybe I’ll run a saliva test for hormones. I find that the more I work with clients, the more I can pick up on their symptoms and pick things up a bit easier, if that makes sense.
[00:16:20] Detective Ev: It’s fair to say. I think people that are listening and maybe they’re trainees, are brand new, right. That might contradict stuff that they’re learning. Let’s also consider the fact that certain people have been doing this for many, many years. Right? If you are working with a certain type of client attracting a certain type of person, and you’re feeling that you are getting good results, I mean, the results don’t lie. So, if people are getting objectively good results with you and you’re doing it a slightly different way, I don’t think anyone’s arguing that.
HTMA Test – Peering into Certain Body Systems
But if you are a trainee listening, just keep in mind, don’t fix what isn’t broken. Do the system first, learn that and then refine it in some way that might work for your specific practice since you can run this in any way that you want better for you.
But don’t shoot yourself in the foot. If you haven’t even started yet, don’t be trying to do different things. We have practitioners, the one Brendan guy, right? I mean he runs like the organic acids test on everyone. There’s plenty of FDN practitioners that will never do that, and it works out just fine. It’s cool to find something that works for you as well. I just want to put that disclaimer on cause I know a lot of trainees listen, so you’ll get why I’m saying that.
What I’m curious about especially since you are using this so often as a standalone, Kendra had always talked about this as like, you can really get people feeling a lot better, fairly quickly compared to some other things by doing this test. I know that it’d be maybe hard to quantify the exact percentage, but in general, are you finding that to be accurate?
Are you saying most people can run the HTMA, they could get the according supplements for it, and they actually are feeling at least somewhat better pretty quickly just from that test alone?
[00:17:42] Barbara Madimenos: Yeah, I would say yes. It’s so universally applied. You know, minerals run everything essentially. It doesn’t just correlate to your energy levels or heavy metal toxicity. Like I said, there’s certain body systems that you could kind of peer into.
The HTMA Test is Fairly Cheap
If you feel like you need this further investigation, you could, whether it’s the adrenals, the thyroid, you could even look at stomach acidity and liver function through a hair test. So, by really paying attention to those patterns, you could most likely help someone pretty well as long as you don’t need to do further investigation.
[00:18:19] Detective Ev: I think that’s one of the biggest things about it is functional healthcare is not particularly cheap. That’s always one of the biggest barriers and we continue to fight for that. But as of the moment of recording this, it’s not cheap. So, people need to know that it works.
You might have an incredible story, or you might know them and maybe they already trust you. But if someone’s just meeting you online or at the coffee shop or at a presentation that you did, this can sometimes be a great entryway tool to show them, wow, this person knows what they’re talking about. Because the test itself is only like a hundred something dollars and that’s with our medical director stuff. So, it’s actually even cheaper than that.
The supplements are actually the most expensive part. Do you use the Vykon Customs?
[00:18:56] Barbara Madimenos: I don’t. I just find that it’s expensive. I try my best to really work with the client, especially now after what’s happened in the past two years. It’s just been a bit difficult for people to pay that. Not to say that I don’t recommend them, I’ve heard great things using those products. I just try to find different things.
Supplementing According to HTMA Test Results
That being said, I work many jobs, but I have also started working for another company and they sell mineral supplements. They’re actually really not that expensive. From my understanding, the absorbability of these supplements are a little over 90% compared to other supplements.
So, it’s interesting, you know. I might be recommending these things soon since I just started. But no, I try to work with the client’s budget, and we work it out.
[00:19:42] Detective Ev: Fair enough. When I ran it, I kind of knew what I was getting into with the Vykon thing. I asked Ryan Monahan. I asked him like, dude, what am I looking at? What’s it probably going to cost? He said, it’s going to most likely be this. So, when I bought the test, I already had all the money together. I’m just like, all right, cool. Let’s do the full thing.
I will say Vykon Customs, it was amazing for those that don’t know. They’re like, what are you guys talking about? Vykon Customs is a company actually founded by an FDN. What they’re trying to do is basically create a way that people don’t have to take a million supplements based on their HTMA results.
Now, to your point, if someone’s on a budget, you might be able to do this a lot cheaper by having them take the individual things. Again, depending on where they’re at in their health journey, they’re like, I can take 15 supplements for half the price or one supplement for double. Of course, I’m going to take the 15, no big deal. Other people don’t like swallowing pills, some people forget. It really is individualized and you gotta know your clients.
HTMA Test – Vykon Supplements
I think there’s something to what you just said. I got the Vykon Customs just for the sake of, I already take a bunch of stuff cause I’m a health freak. I have like a natural pharmacy in my house, basically, that I have to throw out half the stuff every year just to recycle things.
But I did the Vykon Customs, and I was amazed by how much they would fit in to just that little scoop of powder that tastes absolutely awful because it is minerals and vitamins. But you just mix it into something, it’s down in two seconds, and then it’s good to go. I’ve liked it. I found it worked as well, and I’m already a very healthy guy. So, for me to have felt immediate, almost benefit from taking this supplement, I was pretty impressed by it.
Functional Diagnostic Nutrition YouTube
As I’m talking about myself here, I would like to bring up lab test results from myself. Barbara and I talked about this before, she agreed to do this with me. Now she has not ever analyzed these test results in depth to be clear.
Disclaimer, you have seen it in our professionals’ group. I know you left a nice comment for me there, so I appreciated that at the time. But it’s not like you’re sitting here remembering this five, six months later, I don’t think. I’m guessing you don’t go to bed every night, thinking about Ev’s HTMA results. So, this is pretty much being seen for the first time with fresh eyes.
If you want to see this and you’re like, how are they doing this, I’m listening to the audio. This is my way of getting you to our YouTube cause we just started uploading our wonderful FDNs’ and other guests’ faces on there. Now you will be able to check it out.
If you’re listening to this, it’s already on our YouTube. Search for Functional Diagnostic Nutrition. Obviously, we’re going to let this audio continue to run. It’s not like you have to be looking at the test. But if you want to see it, that’s how we’ll do it.
I will share the screen here and hopefully this will work easily enough for you on your phone. Let’s see how it comes up for you, Barbara.
Commerical Break – Try the FDN Course for Free & The Biohacking Congress (Miami)
Hey there friends. It is Detective Ev popping in here really quick. Maybe you’re listening to this and thinking, wow, these guys are cool. Look at them, getting to analyze these labs and order them for clients. If you would like to do the same thing, then maybe you need to go through the FDN training program, huh?
Go to fdntraining.com/tryfdn to try the FDN course completely for free, no credit card is required. That’s fdntraining.com/tryfdn.
Then also my second little advertisement here for you guys, if you will. If you want to see Reed Davis and I, we will be at a conference together in October of 2022. It is, October 22nd and 23rd. Saturday the 22nd and Sunday, the 23rd. It’s in the Miami area and it is known as the Biohacking Congress. It’s something that happens a few times a year, so it’s a smaller event.
But what’s cool about it being a smaller event is you really get to talk to everyone. I’ve gotten to know these people so well, it’s pretty fun. Reed will be speaking there. He is actually the first speaker of the weekend if I’m not mistaken. I’ll be working the booth a lot. My girlfriend, Maddy, who just started the FDN course, will also be there. My parents are even coming. They’re not going to be there the whole weekend, but they’ll be hanging out.
You can meet a lot of people. I will leave some links to that in the show notes, if you’re interested in getting tickets for the Biohacking Congress. If you guys can make it, we’d love to see you there.
All right. Now, back to today’s episode.
Find Client’s Reason Behind Running the HTMA Test
So, we pulled the results up and we got this sorted out. You could see the first page easily enough. We’re looking at that exact thing that you were talking about before those four or five main markers. On this one, it’s actually more of the four, I guess, cause we have the calcium, magnesium, sodium, potassium. I do have the phosphorus at the end, so I don’t know if you want to utilize that.
Should I give more background on how this went or what do you need from me?
[00:23:41] Barbara Madimenos: Usually I ask people, what is the main reason of wanting to run a hair test? What is your current main health concern? And if you are currently taking any supplements, cause supplements could directly influence your minerals.
[00:23:55] Detective Ev: I’ll give you my short rundown. For me, the reason I ran it, one was just the general fascination that comes as an FDN. I couldn’t resist. I keep hearing everyone talk about this, I gotta run it myself. But number two, you’ll notice the date was in February, February 25th of this year.
At that time of the year, I’m working in the schools. I’m full time in there. I do other things outside of this, of course, like the podcast, business, whatever. And it’s winter. I know you’re up in Canada, I’m in Pennsylvania. I know Canada’s worse, but Pennsylvania is not particularly fun in winter either.
I’m working more than I ever do at any other time during the year. It’s also miserable out. I’m getting less light. I’m not in my normal habits as much as I’d like to be. I’m traveling a lot. So, I felt the fatigue coming on.
HTMA Test – Some Fatigue & Some Low Minerals
I kind of knew that I was doing most other things correctly. I was like, all right, I might as well run this now. I heard that it can help with fatigue and stuff. Maybe I’m just not giving my body what it needs because when I am on the road, I gotta be careful. I don’t really want to get exposed to gluten and stuff, so I do end up eating a lot less. And I realize I was kind of like under fed during that time period of my life.
That’s one thing that could lead to a clue for why these results came up the way that they did. Even if I’m enjoying what I’m doing, it’s high stress. Right? You’re speaking. Even if I love it, my heart rate is super high. I mean, it is a stressful thing. Your adrenaline’s going. So that was the context.
I was feeling some fatigue. I was feeling a little run down. I had reasons that it was kind of obvious, but I figured I’d still run the test to see what came up and some things did come up.
[00:25:16] Barbara Madimenos: Exactly. It’s interesting that you were saying that you had a bit of fatigue because you have a couple of minerals that are on the lower side, so it makes sense. You were probably just using them up quicker than you were maybe used to.
HTMA Test – Oxidation Rate
To start off, usually the first thing that we look at is your calcium to phosphorus ratio, which represents your oxidation rate. Here we’re seeing that you were a slow oxidizer cause your calcium is higher to your phosphorus ratio.
Typically, that just means that your body is a bit slower in using the energy that you have. Even though you might have energy stored, it’s just a bit more sluggish in using it. That’s why you might be feeling a little more tired. Honestly, your calcium is not extremely high. I’ve seen like 400 before. But we would typically call it like a calcium shell.
I think your calcium is just trending a bit high maybe because your sodium is a bit high. They kind of play like a role, where they antagonize each other. Same thing with magnesium, they antagonize each other.
Sorry, they don’t antagonize each other. I mean, calcium could just be trending high because your potassium might be a bit low because they antagonize each other. If one goes up, one goes down. It’s kinda like a seesaw. But typically, if someone has a higher calcium level than what they’re supposed to, I just tell people, get on a K2 supplement so you could be able to direct the calcium properly to the bones rather than to tissues, because you could over calcify.
HTMA Test – Calcium Ratios
Then I look to the ratios of how calcium is related to other minerals. You have your calcium to magnesium ratio; you have your calcium to potassium ratio.
You see at the bottom there, your calcium to magnesium ratio is low. So that could signal low blood sugar. Maybe you were feeling fatigued a little more quicker throughout the day. Maybe you were burning through the energy in which your food was providing you a bit too fast to sustain you.
Then your calcium to potassium ratio was really high. This could signal that your cells are not sensitized to thyroid hormone because the calcium is essentially blocking potassium to help the thyroid hormone to actually enter the cell and utilize it appropriately.
[00:27:22] Detective Ev: For those watching the video, I scrolled to the bottom, cause that’s where it’s actually showing you the ratios. I think this is where you could see a really interesting picture. Because on the people that I’ve seen share HTMA test results, Barbara, like in our group, honestly, my top page looks better than like 99% of them. So that’s great.
But then when you go to the bottom, I mean, everything in our world is still relative, that’s like one of the things we’re trained in and that’s where it becomes kind of obvious. You could see, even though a lot of this stuff is either ideal or not particularly far from ideal, again, compared to most people that run these tests, when you look at my ratios, you can see this right here. I don’t need to be an expert on this to know, this is clearly high. This is high, that’s low. That’s maybe in the middle and that’s definitely ideal, obviously.
HTMA Test – Toxic Metals
Then you could see why someone might be presenting with the symptoms because even though the levels might be okay, in and of themselves, the ratios matter a lot in this test, don’t they?
Barbara Madimenos: That’s right.
Detective Ev: All right. I’ll jump around and then we might go back to the top, but I wanted to move to the toxic metals thing. I feel like anyone that sees this would be like, wait a second. You had toxic metals? How common is it when you’re utilizing these tests to see some level of metals in the person’s hair?
I mean, is there ever a time that you’re not seeing metals?
[00:28:34] Barbara Madimenos: It’s pretty rare. I mean, I think everyone has a bit of toxic metals. It’s just the world that we live in as well. Depending, you know, like what kind of water you’re drinking, what kind of food you’re eating. It’s not to say that even if you eat organic that you’re not going to find metals in your food.
There’s levels of metals in chocolate, there’s level of metals in rice. I think cadmium is found in cocoa and arsenic is found in rice, if I’m not mistaken. You could find all kinds of things in water, especially if you drink tap water or well water. You could even find things in pharmaceuticals. You could find things in hair dye, if you’re somebody who is dyeing hair, or tattoos.
There’s so many things. What I typically tell people is as long as we see that your toxic metals don’t eventually become worse or they’re hindering you, I don’t think there’s anything necessarily to freak out about and think, oh my God, I’m going to die.
HTMA Test – Retest to Assess Progression
First of all, are they stuck in your tissues? Let’s do a couple of retests, like retest two, three or four. Cause you have to run a hair test a couple of times to see how you’re progressing. Is it coming out of the tissues? Are you dealing with any symptoms, and so forth?
If it’s just a matter of it being environmental, I usually tell people, you could maybe take a supplement that’s going to help remove them out of the system, because you’re constantly exposed. You know, such as like maybe chlorophyl or like a fulvic or humic acid supplement or something like that.
[00:29:56] Detective Ev: What’s really interesting about this toxic metals part to me is cadmium. Yes, you’re absolutely right. It’s super common in chocolate. In fact, if you buy certain chocolates, there’ll be a warning on the back that like the state in the US, at least the state of California recognizes, that there is cancerous products in this, and it’s referring to cadmium.
Now I am a chocaholic. I am the reason they invented the word. That really got a lot worse over the last two years. Totally not correlated with the pandemic and life stress. What’s interesting, Barbara, is that you would think then my cadmium would be super high. This chocoholic thing really came to fruition in the last two years, that’s when it got really bad. Yet here it is very low.
HTMA Test – How Often to Retest
Now over the last two years, I had been more involved in ketosis, longer fasts, prolonged fasts, and yet it’s really low. So, I’m almost thinking I really wish I had an HTMA test from the beginning of my FDN journey. Cause I’m kind of sitting here wondering if this is that low and I’m obviously getting constant exposure to it, it almost seems like that was getting kicked out.
So, if these are still present, I would find it really hard to believe I’m getting exposed to these things more than the cadmium, knowing my diet. It’s making me wonder, well, were those just extraordinarily high at one point, and now I have been clearing that out progressively.
It’ll be fascinating to see what a retest of this will show. I’m almost done with my Vykon supplements and then I’ll retest. Do you retest, as soon as you’re done with the supplements or is there a period of time that you wait after supplementing?
[00:31:22] Barbara Madimenos: I retest usually every three to four months.
Detective Ev: Regardless of where they’re at?
Barbara Madimenos: Yeah, exactly. To kind of see the progression. Not everyone’s hair grows as quickly. I’ve noticed that my hair does not grow within three months. My hair will grow maybe every five months. My protocols are typically four months. I will typically retest every four to five months with people.
HTMA Test – Additional Minerals
[00:31:47] Detective Ev: I’m due one then. I feel like this is a great excuse to go spend more money on lab tests. Thank you so much. That’s all the justification I need.
All right. Moving on to additional minerals then. I’m relatively ignorant on most of it, additional minerals is by far my worst section. What’s going on over here? What does this mean? And what are the implications to someone’s health or even just my case with what I presented to you with kind of the fatigue and burnout?
[00:32:09] Barbara Madimenos: The fact that your cobalt is really low could sometimes signal low stomach acidity or a poor methylization or absorption of methylized B vitamins, like B12 or B9, or even like B6 or things like that.
If you have low stomach acidity, that makes sense. If your stressed, your body does produce less stomach acid because it just wants to put more energy into more important things. I don’t know if at the time when you did this test, you were having trouble of a bit of digestion or maybe you were bloated or anything like that.
Low cobalt could even potentially be a sign of H. Pylori, because it’s so connected to stomach acidity. I don’t jump to it that quickly. I just ask people, hey, do you have any symptoms? Do you want to maybe run a test, like potentially a GI MAP to see where you’re at, depending on why they came to me.
HTMA Test – Boron and Lithium
Do you have to ask them to check for boron or is that N/A, does that mean they didn’t pick it up?
[00:33:04] Detective Ev: That’s a good question. I’m actually not sure. I ran the test as a standalone. I just sent it in, and this is what they gave me. That would imply to me that they are running it and maybe it’s just still undetectable. Even if that’s the case, I’m not sure.
I will say, I want to let you finish your analysis. But you will be shocked how spot on your cobalt thing was in a moment. Cause I did not tell you any of that stuff. So, we’ll go back to that.
[00:33:24] Barbara Madimenos: Typically, I always test for boron with my clients just because it’s so connected to magnesium, and you need boron to retain magnesium within the cell. If we see high levels of magnesium, which you do have, I would’ve probably recommended a boron supplement. It’s also really handy for like arthritis and bone problems as well, or any type of inflammatory type of arthritic or bone conditions.
Then there’s also the lithium, which it’s usually good for your mental health. I tell people, if you’re somebody who’s like a little more depressed, more on the lower fatigued side, it might be a good idea to consider raising them. Some people don’t like to play with lithium because they have this misunderstanding on the benefits of it. But yours is low and you were saying that you might feel a bit fatigued. You were working a lot. So, it makes sense that you were a bit low on it.
HTMA Test – Molybdenum and Nickel
Then the molybdenum, more related to your metabolism and things. We typically don’t want that high at all. But again, you probably could have raised that maybe a bit with a supplement to help with that.
Nickel, you know, it’s interesting. I don’t see it as an additional mineral, I see it more as a metal. It’s interesting that it’s in the additional mineral section.
[00:34:32] Detective Ev: I’ll go to the cobalt thing then. And thank you for this, this analysis is awesome.
The cobalt thing is fascinating because I don’t even know if I shared this on this show yet because it wasn’t diagnostic, so I don’t want to be misleading. I don’t want to sound like a crazy person. I may have pushed the body a little too far because I really don’t get that many health symptoms nowadays.
Not only did the fatigue come, Barbara, but I very much suspect and have absolutely some good evidence to support the idea that I was dealing with a minor stomach ulcer at the time of testing this. Now, thankfully, I got that healed up. That’s why it’s even more indicative that it was a stomach ulcer, cause I kind of did my own thing with it.
This is a personal choice, I’m not recommending that to anyone. Always go to a doctor if you suspect that you have something. But I was thinking I could maybe figure this out. There were certain foods that were triggering it. Ginger would trigger it. Chocolate was getting bad. Caffeine was getting bad and I’m not even a big caffeine drinker to begin with. But all of these things would trigger it.
HTMA Test – Low Cobalt Can Be Indicative of Low Stomach Acid
I figured out what foods didn’t, I ate those for a while. I did some supplements, some protocols. Sure enough, I just started introducing those foods again and I’m having zero problem with these things. My point is for those that don’t know, I had a history of H pylori. I’m sure I still either have some remnants of it or whatever.
Like you said, H pylori is highly indicated in the low stomach acidity. I mean, I had a stomach ulcer for God’s sake, which is not actually correlated with too high of stomach acid. It’s because people get too low of stomach acid. When it hits the stomach, there’s no protection. Then all of a sudden, bam, you’re getting these ulcers and other damages. That is a gross oversimplification of how an ulcer comes to be, just to be clear.
So, don’t go to your doctor and say, oh, Detective Ev told me this is how an ulcer starts. But that’s a basic way of explaining part of it. That was fascinating to me that you were able to assume that without me giving any hint that that is something that I deal with. Everything you said was a hundred percent spot on.
[00:36:20] Barbara Madimenos: You’re a hundred percent, right. It’s interesting because I think people don’t see just how valuable a mineral could play a role in something like that or how it could actually influence it.
HTMA Test – Minerals are Essential and Influential
I’m glad you’re feeling better. That’s why it’s so important to also know your medical history. You can’t just run a test and expect it to give you the answer. You have to know what you were going through or what you are currently going through to be able to make the right connections.
Minerals could point you to so many different directions, right? For example, the low lithium. Some people could consider that potential toxicity. But it could also be a loss of zinc, which your zinc is a tad low on your hair test. Or it could be over calcification. Well, your calcium is trending a bit high. These little things like that, you can make the right association.
[00:37:04] Detective Ev: Very cool. One thing to finish up my test results here, I think people would be interested in. I kind of already have the answer to this cause Ryan answered it, but it’d still be cool to hear it from you.
Is my iron looking low on this actually an indication that it is low, or is that something that might not be best to be judged by this specific test?
[00:37:22] Barbara Madimenos: No. Iron, in my opinion, should be tested through a blood draw. You can still use it as a reference on your hair test. But I think it’s always best to get a full Monty iron panel or something, through a blood draw, for it to be a little more accurate.
HTMA Test – Minerals Run the Entire Body
[00:37:35] Detective Ev: I’m going to stop sharing then. Thank you very much for that overall analysis. Kind of to wrap this up cause we’re not going to fill out the whole 50 minutes, I don’t think today. This was great. It’s a great overview. I think it’s cool for people that either got to listen to this analysis or got to see it themselves. So again, thank you for that.
Just in review, who should maybe consider using this test? This is something that you’re using on everyone. I am not suggesting for a second, that brand new FDNs that don’t know anything about this go and use this. But let’s assume that they have the training. Do you believe that this is something that should be used on just about everyone, it should be considered an essential test?
[00:38:07] Barbara Madimenos: Yeah, I think it should be considered an essential test. Like I said, minerals run the entire body. Whether you’re looking to help someone with anxiety, depression, hormonal issues, thyroid issues, adrenal issues, even like digestive issues, because your enzymes and your digestive secretions are produced from minerals, there’s so much value to get from, to use this test on your client.
[00:38:31] Detective Ev: The one thing I’ll finish up with, it’s kind of a challenge to this, and it’s a respectful challenge, and a curious one too. I have heard that the reason that this shouldn’t be used maybe as an essential test is because it’s not necessarily causal. Like these results that I’m getting are from other things going on in my life. I mean, we were able to even clearly correlate it with the burnout and the work schedule at that time.
The HTMA Test – Helpful with Root Causes?
Are you making an argument that this test is a causal type of thing for symptoms or that it’s just so useful? I can’t deny in my situation, it was useful. I mean, I knew I was doing the wrong thing. There wasn’t really a way to change that. I love what I’m doing, I wasn’t going to stop. This helped me get through that.
So, I can’t really argue that it was bad. But for me to argue that it was causal, I think in my case would be incorrect as well. How do you view it in that sense? Is this like a root cause type of thing? Or is it just something that is so handy and useful that that’s why you believe it should be essential?
[00:39:24] Barbara Madimenos: I think both. Not everybody’s issues are causal due to mineral imbalances, but some people’s causal issues are due to mineral imbalances if that makes sense.
Like if you come to me and you have, let’s just talk about H pylori. Well, how did the overgrowth even come in the first place? You were stressed, your stomach acidity was lowered. You probably contracted it, or it proliferated, and you got an overgrowth. Well, that’s because you didn’t have adequate, usually we say like, stomach acidities related to the zinc and sodium ratio. You were probably low in zinc.
You were probably not eating enough sodium. You were probably restricting it, or you were over hydrating and losing a lot of minerals. It could be 10,000 things, you were stressed, whatever. H. Pylori was never the root cause, it was the stress. But the minerals are helping you in figuring out the root cause, if that makes sense.
Is Finding Root Causes the Point?
There could be 10,000 reasons why there could be a lot of root causes to someone’s ailments. There’s never really one issue. You know, we live a life of so many stressors every single day, and I think sometimes it could be an accumulation.
I think adopting more of a mindset where sometimes you might not ever figure out the true root cause as to why you developed something, because it just might not be there anymore. Maybe it just catapulted you into a series of other different types of stressors making you more susceptible.
So, I would say it could be both.
[00:40:48] Detective Ev: I would agree with that completely. I was just curious as to what your philosophy was. What you just described, you are using this perfectly in alignment with the FDN philosophy, because that’s exactly what Reed would say.
This is a test, it’s a screening. Maybe we’re finding the cause, maybe we’re not. It’s not actually the point always. I mean, FDNs would love to find the root cause of everything. But Reed’s the first to tell you, it might be so complicated by the time we get a client that you’re never going to figure it out. There might not even be tests that exist to see what the legitimate root cause is.
Where to Find Barbara Madimenos
What we’ve done with all these testings that we have, and all this training is we’ve been able to figure out you don’t always need to know the root cause. If you test all this stuff and then you make the according lifestyle changes and supplement protocols, you can get the person a lot better most of the time without ever needing to know it was this specific thing that happened at five years old and that’s why you’re chronically ill to this day. So, I think that was a great explanation. I thank you for it and for coming on today.
Where can people find you if they wanted to work with you or maybe have this test ran? They’re like, all right, I need Barbara to analyze this thing like she just did for Ev. Where can they find you?
[00:41:45] Barbara Madimenos: You can find me on Instagram at barbaramadimenos, spelled B a R B a R a M a D I M E N O S. I know sometimes when people hear my last names, they’re just like, okay, whoa, whoa. Like how you spell it? But yeah, that’s where you could find me the most. I’m the most active there.
[00:42:00] Detective Ev: Cool. I will have that in the show notes for everyone. So, you do one-on-one clients right now. Are you doing more group stuff in the future? What can they expect if they reach out to you?
[00:42:08] Barbara Madimenos: I’m currently doing one-on-ones with people. That’s what I’m working on now. We might be creating a course in the future, but we’ll see.
Conclusion
[00:42:17] Detective Ev: All right, Barbara, thank you so much for coming on today, again, especially on the fly like you did. Barbara saved the day here to come on and share her expertise with HTMA.
[00:42:25] Barbara Madimenos: Thanks. Have a great day.
[00:42:26] Detective Ev: All right guys, that’ll do it for today’s episode with Barbara Madimenos, where we’re talking about HTMA.
If you want to hear her original story (Episode 106), if you wanted to watch the YouTube version, or if you wanted to get tickets to the Biohacking Congress, in Miami with Reed and myself, then all you gotta do is head to the show notes. I will have all of the links for you there.
I am looking forward to talking to you guys again soon though. But until then, please take care.
You can always visit us at functionaldiagnosticnutrition.com.
To hire a coach, go to fdnthrive.com.
For a free Health Review, go to fdnthrive.com/match/.
